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Author Topic: Omnimechs vs. IS mechs and their variants.  (Read 3901 times)

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Offline Peiper

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Omnimechs vs. IS mechs and their variants.
« on: October 19, 2015, 01:00:46 PM »
I scanned the topic list in this section and didn't see this topic already.

We had several players who were willing to help fill in our IS drop decks last night who had mech chassis, but not the right variants to fill out drop decks.  Given our frustration level of fighting clans with our shitty IS mechs (most of my guys prefer to spend their c-bills on clan tech), it is even more frustrating to have people who can't drop in NBT because they don't have a specific VARIANT ready to drop.  This is not a problem that clans have, because you need to own only one of any given mech to be able to make all potential variants.  Also, the variants we own on our planets are not always the same variants we can buy from our factories.  As the Devil Dogs often 1. drop as clan in MWO CW and 2. can't grind C-Bills while spending multiple evenings dying in MBT, this frustration is accute, and is working against my efforts to keep up morale while we fight more organized units in our crucible of pain to understand and fight well in NBT.

If the clans don't have to take variants, why should the IS have to?  Why not just make it chassis specific?  (I understand lore, what factories produce, and everything like that.  I understand, too, that in MW-4 you didn't need to own ANY mechs to play any of them.)  Thoughts/feelings?

Offline Xavier

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Re: Omnimechs vs. IS mechs and their variants.
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2015, 01:03:50 PM »
Because that is how NBT-MWO is designed. We are not inclined to change this aspect of the league.

If your pilots have only clan mechs, and are not interested in using IS mechs, why did you take an IS faction?

Offline Peiper

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Re: Omnimechs vs. IS mechs and their variants.
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2015, 02:36:12 PM »
There are multiple answers to your question, Xavier.

First and formost, we took an IS faction because our friends asked for our help.  The Devil Dogs, however, have always been a clan-traditioned Wolfs Dragoons based merc unit.  In our story, we do everything we can to keep up the clan tech we brought with us into the inner sphere, follow zellbringen when appropriate, and specialize in fighting behind the lines, stealing replacement clan tech from dezgra clan units to use against our traditional enemies like the cults of Blake, interstellar crime syndicates, terrorist organizations and such.  We do not like politics and take mercenary contracts only because we need the capital to continue our clandestine operations.

Second, we couldn't play Kell Hounds or Wolfs Dragoons as those factions were taken, so we couldn't play either of the two factions that most closely resembled our own - with clan tech.

Third, we DO have inner sphere mechs, but we more often than not play as clan in CW.  When new Devil Dogs join us, they are recommended to buy Stormcrows and clan heavies as well as faster inner sphere mechs like grasshoppers and firestarters.  We tell our guys not to buy mechs that are slower than 70kph, for example, as we don't want them in any of our pug or CW drop decks.  Obviously, that doesn't translate well to NBT, and now the guys that are willing must buy MORE dropdecks worth of mechs to play in NBT.  The fact that we already jump factions in CW puts a burden on especially our newer players, but then we're asking guys to buy mechs that they don't necessarily want for the purposes of NBT - and when we lose consistently in NBT it creates resentment that we had to buy the mechs to play in the first place. 

Now, we expected to lose as we figured things out in NBT, but the more casual Devil Dogs that fill out our drops do not like being asked to buy mechs when they're trying to grind out the mechs that they actually want to play with. 

When clan players merely have to buy one of any given chassis it creates an inequity that just doesn't seem fair, and that's what my beef is about.  It seemed fun, at first, to think that we'd have to buy some new inner sphere mechs to master then for NBT, but the reality is this: 1. if we play multiple nights in NBT and practice in private lobbies, we're not earning money to buy the necessary mechs.  2.  We don't use those mechs in our drop decks for CW, and so don't get experience on them. 

Furthermore, my guys can only dedicate so much time to the game.  They have wives, families, jobs, school.  When they come on, some of their time they want to spend playing casually or in CW, ESPECIALLY after losing in NBT.  They are not masochists.  What I'm saying is: NBT is TOO MUCH for many of my guys.  We are CAPABLE of getting over the learning curve for NBT, I know we are.  But the crucible is very demanding for guys who just want to play and have a good time, and many are starting to sit out until things calm down.

Last night, for example, I had enough guys to fill out our drop deck but they didn't have the variants we needed, forcing us to either drop light, or all take heavier mechs.  Now, anyone can tell you that more mechs are better than less when it comes to fighting the clans with IS mechs. 

I think, if NBT was set before the clan wars, or after, things would be more manageable.  In fact, I think all my guys would have fun if it was only Inner Sphere wars.  But as long as clan mechs are out, that's what my guys want to play, no matter what banner we're flying under. 

As a disclaimer, I'm not expecting NBT to change because of my unit's complaints, but as long as this disparity of fairness exists, players will be driven away.  Hopefully that will not include my unit, but it's possible.  We come here to have fun, not to work a second job.

Offline Derv

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Re: Omnimechs vs. IS mechs and their variants.
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2015, 02:40:30 PM »
Again, why not take a clan faction then? If they need help against the clans, being a Homeworld Clan attacking the clan that attacks them is just as, if not more so, valuable in assistance.
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Offline Lukoi

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Re: Omnimechs vs. IS mechs and their variants.
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2015, 02:40:53 PM »
Unfortunately you cannot have it all in life or this league.  If the tech is that important to your player base, consider taking a Clan faction.  How you guys represent yourselves as that faction is ripe for a great RP story line.

Offline Peiper

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Re: Omnimechs vs. IS mechs and their variants.
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2015, 08:30:39 PM »
Still bullshit.  Clans can throw out every mech they own except the primes, because: omnimechs.  We have to buy a bunch of very specific mechs because: NBT.  They can practice using - and win - in MWO with their metabuild omnimechs.  We have to play non-meta mechs against clan and IS metamechs in MWO,  which is not fun.  So, we have no fun playing against clan meta in our shitty mechs in NBT, and then to practice and/or make money in MWO, we have to take our shitty mechs against meta clan and meta IS mechs. 

Clans keep their meta, we gotta use mechs we don't even want.  You can say that it's about whittling away at the clans and over time, through attrition, maybe you can stop them.  But how much fun is it to play the fodder?  I wouldn't wish that role on anyone.


Offline Xavier

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Re: Omnimechs vs. IS mechs and their variants.
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2015, 08:35:01 PM »
As has been mentioned, there are 9 clans open for application, if you would rather play as Clan.

Offline Peiper

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Re: Omnimechs vs. IS mechs and their variants.
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2015, 10:47:17 PM »
Alright, fair enough.  But that's what happened in MWO.  People who got sick of fighting the clan meta just changed sides.  It didn't solve the problem.

So, I'll suggest a some solutions, because, well, griping without solutions is annoying, right?  Here's some solutions that don't contradict lore or the spirit of battletech.

Adjust tonnage and/or maximum numbers of battlemechs in clan vs. IS conflict.  The inner sphere generally outnumbered the clans either due to bidding or shear amount of resources the IS could bring to bare against them.  The clans made up for the disparity by talent and technology.  In NBT, we have a disparity of technology, but we do not have an equalization in numbers.  If the clans have Tiger tanks and we have T-34s and Shermans, we need more tanks.  The IS wouldn't go head to head, mech for mech with the clans unless they were making some sort of last stand, were trapped, or suicidal.  So why do we, time after time, even on the attack do it?

The ratio of clan mechs to IS mechs should be 4 to 5 (8 to 10).

Offline Xavier

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Re: Omnimechs vs. IS mechs and their variants.
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2015, 11:15:04 PM »
Alright, fair enough.  But that's what happened in MWO.  People who got sick of fighting the clan meta just changed sides.  It didn't solve the problem.

So, I'll suggest a some solutions, because, well, griping without solutions is annoying, right?  Here's some solutions that don't contradict lore or the spirit of battletech.

Adjust tonnage and/or maximum numbers of battlemechs in clan vs. IS conflict.  The inner sphere generally outnumbered the clans either due to bidding or shear amount of resources the IS could bring to bare against them.  The clans made up for the disparity by talent and technology.  In NBT, we have a disparity of technology, but we do not have an equalization in numbers.  If the clans have Tiger tanks and we have T-34s and Shermans, we need more tanks.  The IS wouldn't go head to head, mech for mech with the clans unless they were making some sort of last stand, were trapped, or suicidal.  So why do we, time after time, even on the attack do it?

The ratio of clan mechs to IS mechs should be 4 to 5 (8 to 10).

I would ask that you first read the dozens of pages in these forums on this balance topic, before bringing this up again (this would be the FOURTH time). To be honest, as a league we are tired of the subject; it's been beat to death.

Pilot count differential is not on the table, for reasons that have been amply debated elsewhere in these forums. There are already steps in play to mitigate the OP nature of clan mechs, particularly at lower tonnages.

Finally, your fundamental problem seems to be not so much IS meta vs. Clan meta, it's the fact (by your statements) that your pilots don't have IS meta and understandably are not willing to spend the time to obtain and polish it into usefulness, as you primarily play Clan elsewhere. For that reason alone, I would say again that an IS unit is not the best fit for your team in NBT.

Offline Helbrecht

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Re: Omnimechs vs. IS mechs and their variants.
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2015, 04:23:39 PM »
peiper, ill tell you the same thing i told tamar that when you fight us you can use your mechs as omni mechs untill your problem with variants is solved. we get the MWO is a grindy game and not everyone has the time to do it.

this is an agreement between JFP and Devil Dogs, what other teams do is thier buisness and not subject to this agreement between you and I bud. that should solve pretty much every problem when fighting the Clan Jade Falcon.

Offline Ultramek

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Re: Omnimechs vs. IS mechs and their variants.
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2015, 08:37:45 AM »
peiper, ill tell you the same thing i told tamar that when you fight us you can use your mechs as omni mechs untill your problem with variants is solved. we get the MWO is a grindy game and not everyone has the time to do it.

this is an agreement between JFP and Devil Dogs, what other teams do is thier buisness and not subject to this agreement between you and I bud. that should solve pretty much every problem when fighting the Clan Jade Falcon.

Just a quick addendum, this is just against JFP and the Expendables (XPND), RJF (the Russians) is not bound by this. You should bring this up against any of your Clan opponents, I think people are pretty understanding, and will allow varying levels of substitution (maybe allow you to run 2 of your 4 Tbolts as different variants or something) depending on the situation. We all want quality drops. Forfeiting or fighting a pile of turd mechs is no fun for either side.
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