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Offline Derv

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NBT-C Armies and Garrison Slots
« on: September 07, 2014, 05:49:19 AM »
To help with this big article, here is a small glossary:
Army: An established military unit with better-than-minimum skills that will act like fleets from the past for mechs, but with more depth.
Garrison Unit/Force: A unit of low skill not part of an established army. IE a planet's militia.
Standard Garrison Amount: The amount of warmachines you can place in each individual slot before overgarrisoning charges are incurred.
Warmachine: Mechs/Vehicles/Battlearmor/anything that players use to fight each other.
Scale: Things taking place in the Orbital slot for planets are considered to be at Capital Scale. Capital scale is different

Why Army Tracking?

I really like this idea. In Battletech each faction has a set number of military formations (regiments, galaxies, armies, whatever you want to call them). Each one has overall varied skill and loyalty, along with equipment rating. For the sake of this report we will refer to them as Armies.

The Random Mech(and other) Assignment tables in Battletech are created based on this information. So for example, if you have an A rated Regiment, you roll on the A-rated equipment tables which have the best stuff. If you have E-rated, you roll for E, which usually has outdated or crappy equipment.

Experience and Loyalty
Experience will provide the various warmachines a range of piloting and gunnery skills to choose from. Those warmachines not assigned to an army will be considered militia and will have the lower end of skills to choose from for their machines. So if I attacked Mars with the Wolf's Dragoons, and mars didn't have a regiment stationed on it, the Dragoons would be facing some pretty green troops.

Loyalty can also play a factor (though not required). In a combination with experience, loyalty could affect how soon a player can surrender (a green/questionable army is more likely to surrender earlier than an Elite/Fanatical army). These factors could also affect multi-drop battles, as defeating a green force would gain your more slots than normal, while winning with a force that has questionable loyalty to its faction would gain you less slots).

The only time loyalty or experience settings of an army can change, but I want to keep it hard to do:

Gain Loyalty/Experience Ideas
1) The entire army entity successfully participates in a league wide military campaign scenario* (+skill/loyalty)
2) The entire army entity successfully completes an offensive or defensive PA of a high industry planet (Increases skill),
3) Aspects of an army fully completes an espionage related operation** (increases loyalty).

Lose Loyalty/Experience Ideas
1) Majority of the army is destroyed in a PA (-Skill)
2) Armies are not used (-Loyalty/skill)
3) Being used to attack an ally (-Loyalty)

^If you have anymore ideas for the above, let me know

Army Creation[/b]

Armies would be created similar to how Fleets were.

Say the 11th Arcturan Guards of the Lyran Alliance's Donegal March are of Elite Skill and are Fanatically loyal. Right now the Donegal March has chosen to deploy the Regiment in defense of Tharkad, the capital world of the Alliance.

The way a player puts units into a regiment is that he/she assigns them individually (via drag and drop or checkmark, whatever way you decide to do it Xavier).  The 11th Arcturan Guards, in Battletech, had 1 Mech Regiment (108+ Mechs) 3 Armor Regiments (324+ vehicles), 5 Infantry Regiments (135 BA/Infantry Squads/Platoons), and 1 Aerospace Brigade (54 fighters in their unit). Now, obviously, in past NBTs, that amount of units is enough for a small faction in of itself. But since we're allowing multiple garrison slots, I think that actually ends up making a bit of sense. So instead of making it really complicated, I'd suggest we just focus on a uniform size for Inner Sphere, Clan, and Comstar Factions.

Now, as the average Inner Sphere regiment has 3 battalions, I'd say that most Armies should be given the ability to be broken down into 3-5 separate groups that can be used for 3 separate planets (whether in attack or defense).

If this raises some alarms for you, rest assured: The average Inner Sphere House Military Subdistrict has about 11 unique regiments in it. The average Military District also has 100+ worlds. So even if you split up all your regiments to cover everything, you'd only be covering about a 3rd of your worlds.

To prevent units from using the same armies over and over, I suggest making it so that once you put a Mech or whatever into an army, you cannot remove it unless you sell it to the black market, it gets destroyed, or someone steals it. We should make it so that mechs and stuff can be moved around inside of their assigned army, but must always be grouped together with its fellow army members.

Now if they wanted to move a mech out of say Army 1 and put it into Army 2, they could, but they'd pay a hefty price for it as they'd have to rebuy it from themselves. Or we could do something else to dissuade inter-unit trading, like putting in Buraeucratic Red Tape transfer fee every time you remove something from a regiment. Make it really expensive to do so. I just want the 101st Awesome Kickass Division to be used about the same amount as the 13th Turd Division. If you have any ideas let me know

Mechs and stuff not assigned to an Army[/b]

Anyway, mechs/tanks/whatever that don't end up getting placed under a regimental listing can only be moved between player-owned planets in defense by merchant assets. Ungrouped machines may not be used in offensive actions. Armies can only be refilled by planet garrisons, planetary mothball, and merchant ships. It is also impossible to refill a depleted army unless that army is in friendly territory. Stuff not assigned to an army (Garrison forces/Mothball) can be assigned to an army only if said army is short of its max allowed unit limit. On top of that, salvage will still work pretty much the same, as salvaged units go straight to mothball until activated. We should put in an option to send salvage to mothball, the defender's garrison forces (if the defender won), or to a valid army group on planet.

Garrisons[/b]
So here's what I'd like to see in garrison slots for a planet or a planet sector

1. 'Mechs: Mechs
2. Conventional: Tanks/Bluewater Navy/Mechanized/Motorized Infantry/Field Guns
3. Augmented: Battle Armor/Protomechs/Special Infantry
4. Atmospheric Craft: VTOLs/Conventional Fighters
5: Small Space: Aerospace Fighters/Small Craft
6. Dropships
7. Capital Scale: Warships/Combat Jumpships/Space Stations
8. Static Defense: Gun Emplacements(Turrets)/Predeployed Minefield

Note: Depending on the map or battle, certain types of units will be unavailable for use (ie conventional fighters cannot be used in space combat, warships cannot be used on the ground).

Additionally, I'd like the below numbers to be easily adjustable per Faction. Based on the faction type, this is generic look at garrison levels. But I'd like to give factions different flavors by being able to give them some unique garrison bonuses.

Here are the numbers for planet garrisons I'd like to see(not including Army garrisoning) In the new NBT-Classic, planets can be overgarrisoned to double the amount of standard garrison, other factors apply, see Army Costs below:) Here are the slots I'd like to see based on planet's industry size:

Innersphere/Comstar/Periphery/Mercs/Pirates
Industrially Insignificant Star System

0-50,000,000 Industry:
Slot 1 (Mechs): 4
Slot 2 (Conventional): 12
Slot 3 (Augmented): 0
Slot 4 (Atmospheric Craft): 2
Slot 5 (Small Space): 4
Slot 6: (Dropships): 1
Slot 7. (Capital Scale): 0
Slot 8. (Static Defense): 4

Minorly Productive Star System
50,000,001-150,000,000 Industry
Slot 1 (Mechs): 12
Slot 2 (Conventional): 24
Slot 3 (Augmented): 3
Slot 4 (Atmospheric Craft): 6
Slot 5 (Small Space): 8
Slot 6: (Dropships): 2
Slot 7. (Capital Scale): 0
Slot 8. (Static Defense): 8

Modestly Prosperous Star System
150,000,001-400,000,000 Industry
Slot 1 (Mechs): 36
Slot 2 (Conventional): 36
Slot 3 (Augmented): 9
Slot 4 (Atmospheric Craft): 18
Slot 5 (Small Space): 12
Slot 6: (Dropships): 4
Slot 7. (Capital Scale): 1
Slot 8. (Static Defense): 12

Commercially Successful Star System
400,000,001 - 749,999,999 Industry
Slot 1 (Mechs): 40
Slot 2 (Conventional): 48
Slot 3 (Augmented): 9
Slot 4 (Atmospheric Craft): 24
Slot 5 (Small Space): 18
Slot 6: (Dropships): 6
Slot 7. (Capital Scale): 2
Slot 8. (Static Defense): 16

Economic Powerhouse Star System
750,000,000
Slot 1 (Mechs): 72
Slot 2 (Conventional): 60
Slot 3 (Augmented): 18
Slot 4 (Atmospheric Craft): 24
Slot 5 (Small Space): 24
Slot 6: (Dropships): 8
Slot 7. (Capital Scale): 4
Slot 8. (Static Defense): 20

Legendarily Wealthy Star System
750,000,000+ (Faction Capital prime Sectors and select planets only)
Slot 1 (Mechs): 108
Slot 2 (Conventional): 108
Slot 3 (Augmented): 27
Slot 4 (Atmospheric Craft): 24
Slot 5 (Small Space): 36
Slot 6: (Dropships): 11
Slot 7. (Capital Scale): 5
Slot 8. (Static Defense): 28


Clans, Darkcaste
Industrially Insignificant Star System
0-50,000,000 Industry:
Slot 1 (Mechs): 5
Slot 2 (Conventional): 8
Slot 3 (Augmented): 5
Slot 4 (Atmospheric Craft): 2
Slot 5 (Small Space): 6
Slot 6: (Dropships): 1
Slot 7. (Capital Scale): 0
Slot 8. (Static Defense): 3

Minorly Productive Star System
50,000,001-150,000,000 Industry
Slot 1 (Mechs): 10
Slot 2 (Conventional): 8
Slot 3 (Augmented): 10
Slot 4 (Atmospheric Craft): 2
Slot 5 (Small Space): 5
Slot 6: (Dropships): 2
Slot 7. (Capital Scale): 1
Slot 8. (Static Defense): 6

Modestly Prosperous Star System
150,000,001-450,000,000 Industry
Slot 1 (Mechs): 30
Slot 2 (Conventional): 16
Slot 3 (Augmented): 10
Slot 4 (Atmospheric Craft): 4
Slot 5 (Small Space): 10
Slot 6: (Dropships): 3
Slot 7. (Capital Scale): 2
Slot 8. (Static Defense): 9

Commercially Wealthy Star System
450,000,001 - 749,999,999 Industry
Slot 1 (Mechs): 45
Slot 2 (Conventional): 34
Slot 3 (Augmented): 15
Slot 4 (Atmospheric Craft): 6
Slot 5 (Small Space): 15
Slot 6: (Dropships): 5
Slot 7. (Capital Scale): 3
Slot 8. (Static Defense): 12

Economically Dominant Star System
750,000,000 Industry
Slot 1 (Mechs): 60
Slot 2 (Conventional): 34
Slot 3 (Augmented): 20
Slot 4 (Atmospheric Craft): 6
Slot 5 (Small Space): 20
Slot 6: (Dropships): 7
Slot 7. (Capital Scale): 5
Slot 8. (Static Defense): 15

Legendarily Wealthy Star System
750,000,000+ (Inner Sphere Clan Faction Capital prime Sectors and select planets only)
Slot 1 (Mechs): 90
Slot 2 (Conventional): 40
Slot 3 (Augmented): 30
Slot 4 (Atmospheric Craft): 10
Slot 5 (Small Space): 30
Slot 6: (Dropships): 9
Slot 7. (Capital Scale): 7
Slot 8. (Static Defense): 21


Army Garrison/Cost
On top of all this, I feel having an Army on a planet should impact the planet's Garrison levels. If, say the planet of Epsilon Eridani, can garrison 36 mechs not in an army militia mechs based off its industry, then an Army or part of an Army should be able to place an additional 36 mechs on the world. This supplements the overgarrison feature of the old league.

Having the Army over-garrisoning on the planet will instead create an even greater overgarrison cost, as armies need bases to stay, and supplies. This is another place where Loyalty can come into play. The less loyal a unit is, the more it costs to Army Garrison. If an army is garrisoned on a world and isn't overgarrissoning, then it doesn't incure the extra costs.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2014, 05:55:11 AM by Derv »
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Offline Xavier

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Re: NBT-C Armies and Garrison Slots
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2014, 09:42:20 PM »
Quote from: Derv
1. 'Mechs: Mechs
2. Conventional: Tanks/Bluewater Navy/Mechanized/Motorized Infantry/Field Guns
3. Augmented: Battle Armor/Protomechs/Special Infantry
4. Atmospheric Craft: VTOLs/Conventional Fighters
5: Small Space: Aerospace Fighters/Small Craft
6. Dropships
7. Capital Scale: Warships/Combat Jumpships/Space Stations
8. Static Defense: Gun Emplacements(Turrets)/Predeployed Minefield

So from a data management perspective, I am assuming that all of these things fall under the general class of "unit" in your parlance?

When we talk about moving things around (requiring dropships), lets say that a particular type of jumpship (or a planet) has 4 dropship "slots". You had mentioned different classes of dropship -- do each of these, regardless of class, occupy only one slot, or do they take up different numbers of slot based on the dropship class?

Do all units have exp/movement buffs (for example, you had mentioned 4/5 in another thread)?

Is there an easy way to determine what can carry what other thing(s)?

You'll have to bear with me while I wrangle everything into terms I understand, I've only moderate experience with board gaming at all and zero with CBT. ;) I'm trying to form a data model that works for all this.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 09:50:06 PM by Xavier »

Offline Derv

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Re: NBT-C Armies and Garrison Slots
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2014, 11:43:59 PM »
That's understandable and perfectly fine. In Battletech, a Jumpship has a set number of dropships it can carry. The size of the dropship doesn't matter. A Jumpship with 3 Dropship slots could carry 3 of the smallest dropships, or 3 of the largest, but at most it could only carry 3. I want this to be the same in the league too.

So yeah, I think instead of tracking the skill of each individual unit, we should go with a regimental system. The reason for this is A) MWO isn't going to need to track the skills of each mech/etc, and B) is less tedious for you to code.

As for what can carry other stuff, Megamek itself can show what spaceships can carry specifically.
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Offline Xavier

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Re: NBT-C Armies and Garrison Slots
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2014, 08:13:39 AM »
That's understandable and perfectly fine. In Battletech, a Jumpship has a set number of dropships it can carry. The size of the dropship doesn't matter. A Jumpship with 3 Dropship slots could carry 3 of the smallest dropships, or 3 of the largest, but at most it could only carry 3. I want this to be the same in the league too.

K, got it, thanks.

Quote
So yeah, I think instead of tracking the skill of each individual unit, we should go with a regimental system. The reason for this is A) MWO isn't going to need to track the skills of each mech/etc, and B) is less tedious for you to code.

Up to you; there's no real difference in coding; the complexity comes more in reporting, when the user has to identify exactly which mech did what, rather than the current system, where they just provide numbers of a particular mech used and lost. From the code/database perspective, it's not that much extra work. And for MWO it's simple enough to hide that from the user; sine the exp/movement system wouldn't be used, everything would simply stay at its defaults, and that information would never be seen by the MWO user. But again, it's entirely up to you.

Quote
As for what can carry other stuff, Megamek itself can show what spaceships can carry specifically.

Sure, but if we are loading/unloading dropships in the automation it will need to know as well. ;)

I think I have a system that will work in general, and it will be one that allows the league admin to define all of this from scratch (so that there should never again be a need to ask a coder to change something like this). In short, there will be a "unit class" table whose contents will be defined entirely by the league admin (in case of Classic, you). In other words, you'll be able to add, edit and remove unit classes (the list above, in other words) at any time. Then you can use those classes to add units to a "unit" table, which will essentially be the specific types of unit class (tank, small craft, space stations, etc). Then there is a third table that contains, per unit, a list of the things (and their quantity) that the unit can carry (if any).

So we start with a blank slate. You add "Mech", "Atmospheric Craft", "Dropship" and "Capital" to the "unit class" table. Then you can add "Mech" (of class "Mech"), "Fighter" (of class "Atmospheric Craft"), "Dropship Class A" and "Dropship Class B" (of class "Dropship") and "Combat Jumpship" (of class "Combat Jumpship") to the "unit" table. Then you can set the number of things each can carry to the "unit config" table; there could be (to use examples similar to what you've described elsewhere) a row each for "Dropship Class A" for "Mech" (30) and "Fighter" (2), for "Combat Jumpship" for "Dropship" (3) -- this one would refer to unit class rather than a specific unit definition, and we can make it so that you can have class defaults like this with specific unit overrides (so that in the future if you wanted to make it so that a jumpship could carry 3 "Dropship" by default but only one of "Dropship Class D", that would be possible).

I think this system would also work for planetary garrisons, and should remove virtually any need ever to ask a coder to change the automation again for stuff like this. ;)

Offline Derv

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Re: NBT-C Armies and Garrison Slots
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2015, 03:39:19 PM »
This thread basically says it all.
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Offline Xavier

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Re: NBT-C Armies and Garrison Slots
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2015, 03:44:39 PM »
Yup, and that's what I went with in the current "generic unit" data design.

Offline Derv

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Re: NBT-C Armies and Garrison Slots
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2015, 04:12:37 PM »
K just wanted to make sure we're still moving toward this.
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Offline Xavier

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Re: NBT-C Armies and Garrison Slots
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2015, 04:43:01 PM »
Yup, it is one of the fundamental features of the new code/data design.

Offline Ronin

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Re: NBT-C Armies and Garrison Slots
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2015, 08:11:56 PM »
I'm just going to say that this looks like a mountain of data entry later on heh

Offline Xavier

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Re: NBT-C Armies and Garrison Slots
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2015, 11:37:12 PM »
Fortunately, it's only data entry for Derv, and he lives for data entry. ;)

Offline Derv

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Re: NBT-C Armies and Garrison Slots
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2015, 12:18:06 AM »


Got me there.
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Offline Xavier

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Re: NBT-C Armies and Garrison Slots
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2015, 12:19:33 AM »
+1 for Castle clip.

Offline Ronin

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Re: NBT-C Armies and Garrison Slots
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2015, 11:14:00 PM »
lol if you get to a point in the next couple weeks where you need some stuff added can spare a some hours in the evening.  That is if you have a base list of ah.. we'll say dictionary entries.. that you'd like added.

Offline Xavier

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Re: NBT-C Armies and Garrison Slots
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2015, 01:16:53 AM »
LOL we're well away from that point yet, thank you for the offer though! :)