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Author Topic: Can you guys make a league like SL or VL of good old days?  (Read 5046 times)

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Offline Alexander Malthus

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I perfectly understand that NBT Hardcore was much more deep league with lot's of strategic element involved and both Starlance and Vengeance were pretty simple in comparison. Still right now in MWO we don't have anything comparable at all. Almost all current community run events revolve around matches at fixed dates & time. And that brings up a serious problem as we all live in different time zones, play at different times and so on and so on. Not to mention that MWO is a niche project which will never have really big community so timezone differences become a major problem when coordinating competitive events between different teams.

My idea is that the best solution to this is recreating something that we had in good old days of MW3&4. Creating a league portal where you register and report battles of any size (from 1v1 to 12v12) against other registered participants. Statistic accumulates and shows leaders (both units and individual pilots), runners up and so on. A ladder where you can play against anyone at any time you want in any format. Some TeamSpeak server with proper settings can serve as a substitute to MSN Zone lobby where league participants can meet and arrange matches.

So at long last here are my questions & suggestions :) . What do you think of this idea? Do you plan to make anything like that?

Offline Deadfire

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Re: Can you guys make a league like SL or VL of good old days?
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2014, 02:00:56 AM »
It's an interesting idea, as well as a helpful one to the community currently. This may also be a good thing to have running during the closed devlopment phase we are in. I will present it to the other staff, however I see a couple things that may become issues.

  • There are more then a few other leagues out there at this time, though not like what you purpose in terms of a ladder thats filled with player submitted results to an automated system. However it does dilute the pool of players to keep such a thing interesting.
  • With such a pool of players, how many players/teams is enough to go ahead with it? On the other side of the same issue at what point to we retire or freeze a bracket due to low interest?
  • How much support would a system like this need? are each match approved? or only those contested? how would you prove you fought? screenshots? whos? and if contested what is the fallback?
  • With such a system there is a heavy concern of exploiting or "playing the system". This could be helped with things like player cooldowns (can't face the same player or group for a certain amount of time) and/or making sure the ranking system doesn't put too much weigh into games played. However again this depends on how many players/groups would be enough for such a system.
  • How long would this be active? would there be seasons(resets)? 
  • The issue of making the system that would work for this. We wouldn't want to tax our limited staff with 2 very different leagues to make rules and web-based systems for. However we could take vouleeters for it , as long as they would have the skills and the knowledge to run it. Though that depends how long this ladder would remain active.


Their maybe more that could come up, as well I may have missed a few in my brief points. As I said I would present it to the devolpment team, but please by all means discuss!

Offline Alexander Malthus

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Re: Can you guys make a league like SL or VL of good old days?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2014, 04:05:48 AM »
I participated in 3 RHoD seasons (one of the leagues you mentioned above) and few other community run events so I'm well aware that there's a bunch of stuff offered already. The main problem of said events is the fact that they are all bound to fixed matchmaking. You have to arrange matches with other teams beforehand and play against specific opponents like once a week or so. More or less their systems are like ones in professional sports where you just HAVE to play against every other league participant at least once. So even if your teams are from different time zones you still have to somehow work it out. That's the problem. Even current PGI tournament has it.

On the other hand since PGI introduced 12v12 community is struggling to keep up competitive play on this level. MWO units are not very big, keeping an 8-team in good shape was not easy and now it's 12... Yeah, some leagues are offering 4v4s but what if someone is ready to play 6v6 or 8v8? What if they can do only 2v2 today and next day they are ready for 4v4? And why should we separate the results? Honestly, Starlance and Vengeance MW4 leagues handled everything simultaneously.

I know many of european team leaders and have contacts in 2-3 NA top units so it won't be a problem to invite people to participate. I'm sure it's possible to get at least 10 units for starters and even more will join if everything works out. Also what is great is that such an open approach erases the need to create EU or NA brackets. If all match reports are summarized in a single ladder then it doesn't matter if NA and EU teams meet often as it's still possible to compare their stats.

As for other questions... I'm currently working on a design document which includes a ruleset and describes how such a ladder-league could function. I'll complete it's "alpha" version by this weekend and can post it here. Still I don't see any problems in solving the issues you mentioned above. It worked in the past, it can work again :) .
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 04:18:41 AM by Alexander Malthus »

Offline Vercinix

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Re: Can you guys make a league like SL or VL of good old days?
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2014, 11:37:13 PM »
Hey Alexander Malthus!

Sounds interesting and a logistical nightmare.  Ill be interested in seeing what you come up with and would be more than happy to give any insight I can into helping you out.

Vercinix

Offline Hann Solo

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Re: Can you guys make a league like SL or VL of good old days?
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2014, 05:02:21 PM »
My two cents:

In theory it sounds great but Verci is right in that it will be a logistical nightmare and Deadfire is right in that people will just game the system.  No matter what type of balance you put on it, the only real way to rank people is by having them play against each other. And I understand it can be difficult to make matches between EU and NA time zones which is why I think it just makes sense to keep the two leagues separate.  I made my league just NA for this purpose although I have a few EU players playing in the wee hours so they can participate.  I wish there was a better, more inclusive solution but I just haven't been able to come up with any that made sense.  With that said, I always welcome all of your support in helping me with my league with ideas on how it should play and in spreading the word.  I am very happy so many players are participating and I could use your support to make it the one spot everyone goes to.  I am open to expanding it in any way the community will support.
www.mwoladder.enjin.com
« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 05:04:24 PM by Hann Solo »

Offline Xavier

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Re: Can you guys make a league like SL or VL of good old days?
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2014, 06:04:42 PM »
I would prefer, rather than start yet-another-ladder-league, that, as Hann Solo implies, those who want to play ladders work to improve the ones that already exist.

Offline Alexander Malthus

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Re: Can you guys make a league like SL or VL of good old days?
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2014, 11:35:52 PM »
Didn't find a spoiler tag on this forum so I'm using an attachment (check below the post). There may be typos and/or grammatical errors, english is not my native language unfortunately, but I can get rid of them with your help as well :) . Basically I outline the main ideas and a possible ruleset in this txt.

>>> people will just game the system
I strongly believe that they won't as long as wise and sensible approach is maintained by league administration. And the main reason for that is the main MWO's problem. It's a niche game. Our community is freaking SMALL. 32 teams are competing in PGI tournament but only 2 or 3 of them are actually decent.

Your average MWO player prefers random matches (what are the stat numbers from pgi again? like 70% plays solo?) and doesn't care for competitive ladders, tournaments and planetary leagues. Only a minority of already not so big MWO community is interested in such things.

And the smaller the numbers the easier it is to solve organisational problems. Why would people try to "game the system", "cheat" or whetever if when discovered they will be thrown away from the project, they won't be able to have fun with others anymore.

I strongly believe that creating a good, open-ended project with free scheduling, free matchmaking and open-minded ruleset is a good way to draw people in and have some real fun.

All current project lack such open-mindedness, they concentrate on single format or favor specific mech setups. They don't offer freedom that could provide us with enough fun to continue playing this crappy game :) . That's the point.

Offline PeRRaKo

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Re: Can you guys make a league like SL or VL of good old days?
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2014, 12:35:40 AM »
That sounds like a fun league to play. It reminds me of a MW4 league (don't remember the name) played through Kali back in the day. It was nice because there were no schedule constraints. One could just log in, find someone to play against and melt some metal. Fast, flexible and fun, 1v1, 2v2, 4v4...

But I think NBT is way more than a ladder league, it always has been. It's a CW, hell, from what little PGI has disclosed about their CW (play random matches in the MM and the result adds to a % in the "disputed borders" or something of the sorts), the NBT system could/will be a lot better than PGI's idea.

There are already a few ladder leagues out there, I see no reason to make the NBT yet another one. In my opinion that's not what we are looking for here. But hey, I could be wrong :P
PeRRaKo
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Offline Alexander Malthus

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Re: Can you guys make a league like SL or VL of good old days?
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2014, 12:59:16 AM »
Yep, I pretty much understand NBT origins as my clanmates were playing NBT-Hardcore. The thing is that my idea is just that, idea :) . Planetary league is more of a specialized fun while what I'm talking about is more of a general thing. Those concepts don't really interfere with each other.

I'm just trying to find like-minded people who can help making my idea a reality, that's it. I'm no technicial after all :) . If NBT guys can make a league similar to what I'm thinking of, that's great. If not, I'll just continue searching.

In this post I'm updating the rules (keeping english version up to date as well).